Christine ([info]kisekileia) wrote,

faith and pain

This is cross-posted from the Frenzyboard. I posted it in the context of a discussion about faith, losing it and keeping it, that sort of thing.

Various things about what Christian communities tend to be like make me extremely uncomfortable going to Christian gatherings, which has resulted in my spiritually starving myself for a few years now. As a result of this spiritual starvation, the discomfort has only grown worse rather than better, and I haven't been able to integrate Christian faith and my own life in ways that I'm comfortable with. The parts of Christianity that I feel comfortable with are the ones relating to social justice, God creating all human beings with intrinsic worth, and stuff like that -- and I have been nurturing and developing those aspects of my faith. It's the personal part, the relationship with God part and the stuff about how God interacts with our everyday lives that I feel uncomfortable about.

It's not that I don't want to believe in it. It's more that Christians talk about how God works in people's lives and stuff like that, and I feel like I have a choice between either believing that God takes a much more hands-off approach to the world than most Christians believe he does, or knowing that God has done wonderful things for other Christians AND NOT ME. Honestly, I think that's really the crux of it, and that's why I'm so uncomfortable dealing with other Christians and with Christian communities that treat God in a very personal way. It's not that God's never done anything for me, because He has, and sometimes I forget that. But I honestly don't know what's God and what's just natural results of circumstances. I try to integrate the two by believing that God sets the wheels of life into motion, and then they turn as a result of the way God has made the universe and of people's choices.

What makes me so uncomfortable is seeing how Christians talk and sing about God being so wonderful, God working things out for them in their lives, and stuff like that, and having what they say about God NOT fit with my experience in my own life. My experience in my own life is that God isn't all that reliable. I believe that He will work things out in the end, especially in the afterlife, but when people talk about how God worked things out so that they get a job, or God did this in their lives, or God makes sure everything turns out okay no matter what circumstances they find themselves in, it makes me uncomfortable because I have had worse things happen to me than I've even imagined and God has NOT stopped them or made them go away. I believe in God. I have faith in God. I just don't think that He's as simple or makes things as perfect as Christian communities make Him out to be, and I feel uncomfortable with people saying He is like that because it clashes so strongly with my deeply felt emotions about His activity in my life. I mean, lots of Christians in my shoes would say "Oh, God worked things out so that I didn't end up completely screwed financially, God worked things out so I have friends now", stuff like that. And I guess those things are true -- it's just that most Christians would focus on those, and attribute all the good things to God but none of the bad, and I can't do that when the bad includes the destruction of not only many of the dreams, but most of the basic expectations I had of how my life would proceed between my 16th birthday and now. When you've spent the last six years having the things you believed God was preparing you and leading you to do wrecked beyond your worst nightmares, how are you supposed to sing praise and worship and feel comfortable with other Christians constantly saying "Oh, God did this and that wonderful thing for me"?

I haven't fully faced all this anger and pain -- I've been avoiding Christian communities and also avoiding dealing with my personal relationship with God. I've been all about Christian principles, "love your neighbour as yourself", but I don't know what to make of God as a...person, for lack of a better term. I want to believe, and I do believe, but I have a hell of a lot of pain in there fucking me up.

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[info]saintcheney

July 16 2005, 09:37:09 UTC 6 years ago

Yeah...hmm. I don't really have anything to say that I know of that would help at all, except that sounds so familiar for me, maybe not completely right now but definitely at other times. And there isn't really an explanation...I don't understand. I don't understand why some things work out for some people and not for others, and I don't understand so much crap that happens. What makes me really uncomfortable is when people say, in regards to something really awful, that it was God's will. I don't think it's true and I don't think it's right, and it seems like it's limiting our view of God, like we don't trust him enough to let some things be outside of his will. Everything that happens is not God's will. He is not a God of senseless pain and destruction and death...we live in a fallen, screwed up world and it seems like so often people ignore that part. God can work good through the awful things if we give them to him, but that doesn't mean they were originally his will.

And lately - as in like...last night lately - I've been confronted with the horror of expectations. It's so hard...so much hell, for me, has come as a result of expectations. Mine and others'. The idea we have in our heads of the right way for things to be, and how they should be...and they aren't. The idea that I have to surrender my expectations...it's huge, and I don't know how to do it completely. But I'm so blinded by my expectations, this made-up idea of how things should be, that I can't get past them to give God the bad things...I'm not really sure how to explain it. It's just been really apparent lately. Because things aren't as expected. They aren't pretty or good and they don't fit in little boxes, I don't know what all it's been like for you but I've gathered a little by reading your journal...and a lot of it sounds familiar. The feelings if not the circumstances. I'm twenty-two years old and I'm going to be a junior in college. This was not the "right way" to go about it. I have spent the past four years going back and forth and going through hell and back just to get to this point...this wasn't the way it was supposed to be. This isn't the "right" way. I could be graduating like all the other people I went to high school with and I'm not...but I can honestly say now that it is better this way, that things have happened that couldn't have happened if I had done it the "right" or normal way. At the same time, I made a lot of mistakes and I was completely wrong in what I did. If I hadn't done it, a lot of good wouldn't have happened...but that doesn't make what I did right. God worked through it and from it, but it wasn't God's will initially.

I'm not sure what I'm rambling about, but I felt like I should try. I do believe it will be all right. It isn't okay, but it will be all right.

[info]kisekileia

July 16 2005, 15:17:43 UTC 6 years ago

It does sound like our situations are a lot alike. It's not that I acted morally wrongly, but due to things I could not control I didn't do the things I needed to do in order to progress more in school and stuff. Like you, I'm 22 and only halfway through my degree.

Thanks for your comments. I'm not totally sure what to say to a lot of them, but it really sounds like we're on the same page and with somewhat similar experiences and stuff. Maybe we should talk on IM on one of the rare occasions that I'm on or something.

[info]saintcheney

July 16 2005, 15:21:47 UTC 6 years ago

Yeah...we should! Feel free to IM me if you ever are on. My screenname is Cheney Macphisto.

[info]kisekileia

July 16 2005, 15:15:17 UTC 6 years ago

Reposted from Frenzyboard:
"Am I upset because of the consequence of my action or because of a circumstance that is out of my control (whether from another person or from God)? If it can be linked to your own action, figure out what you can do to amend that behavior; if it is not in your own control, figure out what you can do to cope with it."

(that was from a reply by Brody)

My reply to that:

Well...most of it has had to do with things that came from me, but weren't fully in my control: i.e. me not living out the life I wanted to live because of mental health problems and ADD fucking me up. I've been in the process of figuring out what I can do to change it and how I can cope with it for the last four years. Things being from my own actions and things being truly, fully under my control are two VERY different things in my situation.

I know there are some good reasons why God has let me go through this -- not in the least, because it's given me the chance to be here for people on this board and even save lives here. This board has given me a wonderful opportunity to actually be of some use in this world despite my incapacity in my offline life, and I thank God (and everyone here) for it. It's also, to an extent, given me the opportunity to have the kind of role in people's lives that I once thought God wanted me to have as a camp counselor -- I have been able to take the gifts whose use was thwarted at camp when I was 16 and apply them here, which I'm extremely thankful for, but the pain of spending summer after summer at home being depressed instead of at camp having a blast is still there.

And I know there may be a purpose for what I've gone through at university. It's resulted in my being able to do a lot of good on this board. That doesn't take away the pain, though. And I think I've avoided considering God responsible for things that happen in this world in general partly so that I didn't have to consider Him responsible for the crap that has happened to me. It's just in the last couple of days that I've started realizing that and facing it a little bit.

[info]mengzhou_li

July 16 2005, 15:28:47 UTC 6 years ago

as i've said before, MAKE AN APPOINTMENT WITH IV CORDINATOR... we all struggle greatly with our understanding with God, i'm so glad that you question, and not many of us are uber christians....but by coming together i hope we of a kind could strengthen our relationships with God...and I really want to meet you in person...maybe next week...? i think i'm more prepared now :D

[info]skatche

July 20 2005, 15:12:33 UTC 6 years ago

I'd like to talk to you, if you don't mind. Try to find me in my room (I'll probably be here most of this (Wednesday) evening) or IM me: gandalftheblack@hotmail.com .

Anonymous

July 22 2005, 05:51:14 UTC 6 years ago

like I said before

you can have the good point or two about Christianity without the Christianity itself. And god doesn't fucking care about you, me, or anyone, nor is it the Christian god either. So no, you'll never have the experience others are faking to you.

[info]kisekileia

July 22 2005, 07:35:40 UTC 6 years ago

Re: like I said before

I don't think others are necessarily always faking it. Becoming a Christian when I was younger did a lot of good in my life that definitely wasn't fake.

Anyway...I don't really buy the whole God not caring thing. Ben, I know you're bitter and upset because you feel you were lied to about Christianity, but can you lay off on the cynicism a bit with me? It doesn't do me any good. *hug*

Anonymous

July 25 2005, 05:32:59 UTC 6 years ago

Re: like I said before

I'm sorry but, to be honest, it's what I think is truth. Not saying that Christianity does no one good, but that God doesn't
1: answer prayers
2: talk to people
3: "come down" on people or give them "tongues" or anything like that
4: do any real change in anyone's life. Any change created by Christianity can be attributed to the church itself, or the philosophy of the church, specifically taking on said philosophy.

I'm really sorry if I disturb you with it. We should actually, youi know, talk about it. Oui? Non?
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